Wednesday, December 10, 2008

Please Allow Me To Introduce...

...Camille Paglia!

Paglia is a true public intellectual. Whether you agree or disagree with her on any particular topic is beside the point when you read her writings; in either case, chances are her arguments will lead you to consider her point of view and position and thus reconsider your own.

No, Ms. Paglia may not convince you she's right and you're wrong, but opening yourself to her interpretations and conclusions regarding an issue will likely give you an intellectual shove provoking a reexamination and rethinking of your own beliefs - which is never a bad thing.

Bottom line: I like Camille Paglia. To contrast, people who don't like her include Gloria Steinem, Molly Ivins, Betty Friedan, and Naomi Wolf. Make of this what you will.

Anyway... today allow me to critique Ms. Paglia's most recent column, "What Do The Clinton's Have On Obama," which can be found on Salon.com -

Paglia writes...

Last week's announcement by President-elect Barack Obama of his massive public works initiative to stimulate the economy won loud applause from me. Not only does the decaying U.S. infrastructure need emergency attention but construction commissions will be far more substantive and enduring than the half-mythical 5 million "green" jobs that Obama was airily promising before the election.

I disagree. Strongly. Indeed, I expect that in addition to much of the spending no doubt destined to be misdirected, squandered and even stolen, even under the most optimistic scenario regarding the ravages of waste, dishonesty, and simple human error the sheer amount of deficit spending likely to be proposed (and added to by Congressional proclivity to "sweeten the pot," to add parochial pork) will lead to further weakening of domestic and overseas trust in the "full faith and credit" of the United States government which will in turn lead to downgraded credit rating, weakening of the dollar, inflation, and eventually stagflation.

Yes. Plenty of U.S. infrastructure needs attention and upgrade, but just as man does not live on bread alone, neither does a first world economy live - let alone prosper - on borrowed money flowing into union construction and little else.

If Obama was borrowing the money in order to start a crash nationwide program of nuclear power plant construction I'd say "short term pain for long term gain," but that's not what he's proposing. He's proposing "same old, same old." He's proposing the same sort of policies that couldn't get this nation out of the Great Depression when FDR tried them. Obama's proposing the same old "guns and butter" policies favored by LBJ that set the stage for the economic turmoil of the Nixon, Ford, and Carter years.

I know... I know... some of you don't believe me. You'll see though.

I know... I know... some of you are thinking right now that Obama's gonna trim the "guns" portion of the federal budget at least. We'll see. Even if he does, though, it won't be enough to counterbalance the increased social spending and capital spending he's been talking about. No. Not nearly enough.

But Paglia also writes...

But then I gulped when Obama also pledged educational reform by putting state-of-the-art computers in every classroom. Groan. Computers alone will never solve the educational crisis in this country: They are tools and facilitators, not primary conveyors of knowledge. Packing his team with shiny Harvard retreads, Obama missed a golden opportunity to link his public works project with a national revalorization of the trades. Practical training in hands-on vocational skills is desperately needed in this country, where liberal arts education has become a soggy boondoggle, obscenely expensive and diluted by propaganda and groupthink.

Bravo! See... I told you she was worth reading! "Practical training..." "Vocational skills..." Pardon the pun, but Ms. Paglia hits the nail on the head!

(Hmm... I wonder if Ms. Paglia shares my appreciation for the works of Charles Murray and if she's also reading, or has already read, Murray's latest, "Real Education: Four Simple Truths For Bringing America's Schools Back To Reality"?)

(If only President-Elect Obama would read the book...)

Paglia continues...

The plurality of moderates and conservatives on Obama's appointments list didn't surprise me, because I never thought he was the flaming radical socialist portrayed on right-wing talk radio (which I listen to and enjoy even when I disagree).

Again... pardon the pun, but... DITTO!

Paglia continues...

I've been very gratified by [Obama's] dignified deportment and steadiness at the helm to date. But I must admit to puzzled disappointment with his recycling of Clinton era veterans, who reek of déjà vu. Surely we might have expected a better mix of fresh faces and progressive voices? Obama's team may have underestimated the labyrinthine personal interconnections and habit-worn loyalties of that cliquish crew.

Yep. No doubt a new president - especially one with as flimsy a federal government resume as Obama's - requires experienced hands to help him steer the Ship of State through treacherous seas, but as Paglia points out, there are potential negatives to sailing with a seasoned crew whose ultimate allegiance may still be to the former "owners" of the "ship."

In all candor I can't say I'm all that worried by the prospect of a successful future Clinton "mutiny" against Obama. I have faith that if push comes to shove our new President-Elect will be able to "out Clinton" the Clintons from behind his desk in the Oval Office just as easily as he did while competing against them for the right to sit behind that desk in the first place.

Paglia continues...

As for Obama's appointment of Hillary Clinton as secretary of state, what sense does that make except within parochial Democratic politics? Awarding such a prize plum to Hillary may be a sop to her aggrieved fan base, but what exactly are her credentials for that position? Aside from being a mediocre senator (who, contrary to press reports, did very little for upstate New York), Hillary has a poor track record as both a negotiator and a manager. And of course both Clintons constantly view the world through the milky lens of their own self-interest. Well, it's time for Hillary to put up or shut up. If she gets as little traction in world affairs as Condoleezza Rice has, Hillary will be flushed down the rabbit hole with her feckless husband and effectively neutralized as a future presidential contender. If that's Obama's clever plan, is it worth the gamble?

Yep. That's Obama's plan. And it's a good one too! If soon to be Secretary Clinton is seen as a successful Secretary of State... her success reflects upon President Obama. If she fails... her failing reflects upon her.

Paglia continues...

Given Obama's elaborate deference to the Clintons, beginning with his over-accommodation of them at the Democratic convention in August, a nagging question has floated around the Web: What do the Clintons have on him?

Nothing. To take a page (or rather paraphrase a sentence) from the late Gertrude Stein, there's simply no there there.

Anyway... that's all from me. To read the rest of Paglia's most recent column, follow the link I provide up above.

23 comments:

Rodak said...

Thanks for "introducing" Camille Paglia. She is certainly a step up from your typical enthusiasms. She does not, however, need any introduction to some of us. Ms. Paglia used to be a serious academician, educated at Yale, whose mentor was the great critic, Harold Bloom. Nearly twenty years ago she published her magnum opus Sexual Personae, which is a challenging "must" read for contemporary persons of an intellectual bent.
The book became a NY Times bestseller, despite its seriousness, and Ms. Paglia, who had been a typical dowdy academician when her book became a sensation, began to get many requests for TV interviews. Unfortunately, she was bitten by the celebrity bug. Too rapidly she stopped turning up for those interviews in tweed suits with skirts, having switched to black leather jackets with tight trousers and spike-heeled thigh-high boots to match. She got herself a trendy, spiky hair-do, started expressing herself in the argot of her undergraduate students, and set her sights on stardom.
Then she made the mistake, just a few years before it would have worked for her, of declaring herself to be a lesbian. Uh-oh. Bye-bye TV invitations.
Sexual Personae was to have been a Book One on her major theme. My good friend, Jim, when he saw the spectacle that Paglia was making of herself on TV, predicted that Book Two would never be published.
So far, it hasn't.
Nor has anything that she has published since 1990 even approached the brilliance of Sexual Personae.
That said, I reiterate, "SP" is a must read.

Rodak said...

Hmm. Let's focus on just one aspect of Paglia's screed, i.e. her criticim of Obama's proposal to put good computers in every classroom. I'd say she has a strange notion of what computers are now used for in the real world. It would seem that she can't see that any reorientation of the public school classroom with an aim towards meaningful vocational training would necessitate establishing in students good computer skills from day one. Computers are not only used by eggheads to do research on phallic symbolism in Etruscan pottery. Computers are now used by the grease monkey to determine why your Lexus stalls out when it's idling. There is almost no kind of job at which one can make a decent living today that doesn't include computer skills. Military service requires computer skills. Just about anything other than shoeing horses and shovelling manure requires computer skills. Students in schools with good computers and educational software turning out graduates with an edge on those from schools that don't have them
Paglia may well see herself in Obama. She burst upon the scene as unexpectedly and with as much acclaim as he has (albeit in a smaller universe). She may see her precipitous fall as predictive of one for Obama. She may be right. She is a smart cookie, even if more than a little bent. But I don't see why she needs to go to such self-contradictory lengths to sniff out the fatal flaw that she believes will bring him down and give it a good yank to get the process rolling. This ain't no fooling around!

Rodak said...

Okay, now...moving on to Paglia's next topic, this

But I was troubled by a persistent soft-pedaling of the identification of the attackers as Muslims --as if the mere reporting of that fact would be offensive and politically incorrect.

is just crap.

All the speculation I heard about Mumbai was speculation about which group of MUSLIMS was responsible for the acts committed. Were they elements of the Pakistani intelligence operation? Were they nationalists from Kashmir? Were they indigenous, disgruntled Indian or Bangladeshi Muslims? Were they affiliated with al-Qaeda, or were they not?
It may well be that most Americans are so abysmally stupid that they didn't realize that all of these various speculations assumed enough knowledge of the world to realize that it was taken as obvious that the attackers were Muslims and attacking AS Muslims. Sheesh! C'mon, Camille, get real wid it!
(This just shows you what happens when--ahem--lapsed English major try to discuss economics and politics, right?)
Her attack on Cavett reeks of inverted condescension. Cavett is right.
The music links at the end of the piece are golden, however.

William R. Barker said...

re: Rodak; December 11, 2008 4:58 a.m.

You're welcome, Rob! (*WINK*)

(And btw, I have linked to Paglia columns in the past over at RT. The title of this thread was simply... a title.) (*SHRUG*)

(And btw #2... no doubt in the future I'll be "introducing" Christopher Hitchens too!) (*LAUGHING OUT LOUD*)

re: Rob; December 11, 2008 5:59 a.m.

Oh, please, Rob... (*SIGH*)... I have a 21 year old daughter who attended and graduated from outstanding (by the stats) upper middle class suburban NYS schools and who graduated college with a BA in history in less than three years. (*SMIRK*) As to her "computer skills..." (*SNORT*)

Seriously, Rob, I know exactly what Paglia is referring to - and she's right.

Oh, sure, you've got your computer wiz kids... just as you have star athletes and kids who can rebuild a car engine at 16. But the average liberal arts type... (*SNORT*)

No, Rob, my kid doesn't even type properly because that particular foundation of computer usage isn't widely taught anymore. (Thank God I took typing in high school!)

Oh, sure, they can troll the internet and download mp3's and stuff, but give the average non-business-major-type a spreadsheet/database program and expect him or her to actually create something useful... (*RUEFUL CHUCKLE*)

Jeez, Rob, forget the kids - what level of computer proficiency do you think you're going to get from your average elementary school teacher...?!?! (*GUFFAW*)

Rob. You REALLY need to read "The Dumbest Generation." You really do. (*SIGH*) (And books like it...)

Rob. Your definition of "skills" is at best naive and at worst self-deception. Being able to download tunes, watch videos on YouTube, and "network" using Facebook isn't the sort of "skill" set that qualifies as "computer skills" in a meaningful professional sense.

re: Rob; December 11, 2008 7:21 a.m.

Rob. First of all, before I forget... thanks for all the feedback. (*WINK*)

"It may well be that most Americans are so abysmally stupid..."

Well... YES, Rob... (*LAUGHING*)

Anyway, I'll reread the other two pages of Paglia's piece that you refer to and get back to you.

(*WINK*)

BILL

Rodak said...

Bill, with all due respect...you are NUTZ!
I will grant you that computer skills may not be high priority item for college graduates. But those are not the students about whom we are talking about when we are talking about reorganizing schools to provide vocational training, is it? The graduate who knows Access, Excel, PageMaker, etc. is the student who will get that office job over the applicant who doesn't know those applications. Are we not talking about students who are NOT going to go to college becoming self-supporting through training they've received in our public schools?
The fact is that in most of the school districts where there are not sufficient computers and computer training in the schools, most of those students don't have computers at home, either. (Their parents cant' afford either the hardware, or the internet hook-up.)
That is the exact situation in most of the county in which I now live--rural, poor, unconnected.
Nobody cares about the computer skills of the 30% or so of the population that goes to college. They can hunt and peck and get by. And they can hire people to type long documents for them.
It's the formerly blue-collar population who no longer have factories to graduate into who need computer skills. And they need to acquire them in the schools, because their parents can't provide them with that.
Paglia is an elitist, and apparently you're another.

William R. Barker said...

re: Rob; December 11, 2008 7:21 a.m.

I'll get to Cavett (after I read what he wrote), but first...

HA! HA! HA! Agreed! Jim Bailey as Barbra Streisand w/Carol Burnett is laugh out loud funny!

(Oh... and the REAL event was kick ass!!! Let's not forget that.)

(OH...! And let's not forget... God bless Judy Garland. Sure. She was f--ked up. Sure. She basically killed herself. But, jeez... what a talent... what a natural force of nature.)

HA! HA! HA! The Jolly Boots of Santa!!! HA! HA! HA!

Now... as to Cavett...

Nope, Rob... you're wrong - Cavett's a jerk. Here... allow me to demonstrate:

"I can’t blame feminists who might draw amusement from the fact that a woman managed to both cripple the male she was supposed to help while gleaning an almost Elvis-sized following for herself. Mac loses, Sarah wins big-time was the gist of headlines. I feel a little sorry for John. He aimed low and missed."

(*SNORT*) Nice try, Dick. As I said at the time and as exit polling verified, Palin gained McCain far more votes than she lost for him.

(Rob... when Cavett BEGINS by hanging his thesis on a false premise...) (*SHRUG*)

"And how much more of all that lies in our future if God points her to those open-a-crack doors she refers to? The ones she resolves to splinter and bulldoze her way through upon glimpsing the opportunities, revealed from on high."

The contempt for RELIGION stands out to me and frankly overpowers the message of disdain aimed at Palin. (*SHRUG*) Nope. Cavett preaches to the choir in such a way as to repel anyone not singing the same hymn.

"What on earth are our underpaid teachers..."

GIVE ME A FRIGG'N BREAK!!! (Jeez, Rob, how many false premises is the guy gonna throw out in a single column...?) (*CHUCKLING*)

"Matt Lauer..."

I'm sorry, Rob... but there are limits. (*GRIN*) Reading the words "Matt Lauer" short circuited any further interest I have in reading the rest of Cavett's... err... screed. (*WINK*) (*BOW*) (*CHUCKLE*)

BILL

Rodak said...

(*SNORT*) Nice try, Dick. As I said at the time and as exit polling verified, Palin gained McCain far more votes than she lost for him.

Only among those who voted for the ticket. She lost the ticket votes among every other group who might potentially have voted for the ticket.

I was commenting only on the passage I quoted. I agree that Cavett, overall, is an ass.

Rodak said...

Now, get back to computers in the schools. That is an important point of dispute.

Rodak said...

Btw, it isn't difficult to have contempt for the Bush-Palin concept of religion without having contempt for religion per se.
I don't have a clue what Cavett's take on more sophisticated versions of religion might be. But my take on the Bush-Palin version is that it is very, very dangerous.
They are just exactly the types about whom I've been blogging with the tag "American fascists."

William R. Barker said...

re: Rob; December 11, 2008 10:09 a.m.

(*SMILE*)

Rob. Don't know how much knowledge (let alone training and actual professional experience) you have in statistical methodology and polling, but suffice it to say that your counter to my previously noted factual reading of the case in question leaves much to be desired.

(*GRIN*) (*CHUCKLE*)

Anyway... rather than belabor the point... believe what you will. (*SHRUG*) Content yourself with... err... "potentialities" while I stick with those dusty old fashioned... err... facts.

(*GOOD-NATURED SLAP ON THE BACK*)

As to...

Rob; December 11, 2008 9:34 a.m.

...and...

Rob; December 11, 2008 10:10 a.m.

(*TAKING A BREATH*)

Rob. Again. If by "skills" you're talking business/scientific hardware/software functional applications, the schools aren't teaching much of that now.

(I think they should be, but I'm talking about what is.) (*SHRUG*)

As to social networking/entertainment centric skills... even there the kids are mainly working off templates, their levels of true creativity more often than not confined to, as an analogy, rearranging the furniture in the room rather than coming up with the concept and building the furniture. (*SHRUG*)

Anyway... I digress. You were talking vocational training whereas I'm taking the more overarching approach to public school education as a whole as it exists.

AGAIN... TO REITERATE... I'm with you on vocational computer training. (*HANDSHAKE*)

Putting computers in every classroom is no more the path towards computer literacy than is having maps on the walls of all elementary school classrooms and atlas' on the shelves the path to geographic literacy. (As is obvious by the lackluster - embarrassing in fact - scores on geography American students and American adults routinely rack up when tested.

"Every classroom" is by definition something beyond a vocational focus. (*SHRUG*) But it SOUNDS damn good at first glance, doesn't it...? (*SMILE*) (Of COURSE it does - you bought it!) (*CHUCKLE*)

Rob... SERIOUSLY... use your computer right now to surf on over to Amazon.com and order yourself a copy of Charles Murray's "Real Education." You'll enjoy it. You'll profit by it. I'm not saying this as part of our back and forth jousting, but rather because I truly believe you'd enjoy the book and profit by it.

(*SHRUG*)

BILL

William R. Barker said...

re: My original thread post

sub-re: Calls for another "stimulus" package

See: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d8236b34-c6cd-11dd-97a5-000077b07658.html

EXCERPTING...

-- As the financial crisis attacks the economy, there is growing pressure on governments around the world to introduce fiscal stimulus programs. This follows big interventions in the financial sector, massive easing of monetary policy, especially in the US, and substantial loosening of fiscal policy. The fact that there are time lags between these interventions and their effects seems to have been ignored. --

Yep. Lots of that "ignoring" stuff going around. Unfortunately!

-- The assumption appears to be that fiscal stimulus will automatically revive private spending. But this belief contrasts with data that show there is considerable uncertainty about the size and nature of the stimulus required to cause spending to increase. --

"Data" schmata! Let's just wing it! (*SNORT*) (Umm... that's sarcasm btw.) (*WINK*)

-- The larger the stimulus, the stronger its impact on consumer confidence and the greater the multiplier effect. How this effect would be produced is not explained. Instead we are given mechanical metaphors, such as “jump-starting” the economy. --

Yep. Why do the math when you can just assign value based upon catchy slogans?! (*SNORT*)

-- Consumers also have concerns about the fiscal sustainability of their governments in assessing their long-term disposable income. Research suggests that when the ratio of public debt to gross domestic product is already high, the multiplier effect of fiscal stimulus is low. In extreme cases, fiscal expansion may even be contractionary. --

(*MUMBLING*) Damned party poopers... (*STILL MUMBLING*)

-- In addition, the sheer size of a stimulus package, which would lead to a deterioration of a country’s fiscal position, may have a negative effect on consumer confidence. --

Ya mean money DOESN'T grow on trees...??? DAMN!

Hmm... you've heard of the law of unintended consequences? Well... it seems that the authors of this op-ed, Leszek Balcerowicz and Andrzej Rzonca, are right up there with yours truly (*MODEST BLUSH*) when it comes to ANTICIPATING consequences. (*FROWN*)

-- Not only is there a danger that the high initial level of public debt relative to GDP will limit the impact of any fiscal stimulus. In addition, the sheer size of a stimulus package, which would lead to a deterioration of a country’s fiscal position, may have a negative effect on consumer confidence. --

Ya think...?!?! (*GRITTING MY TEETH IN FRUSTRATION*)

(Kinda reminds me of the old canard "we've got to destroy the village in order to save it!")

-- Consider Sweden’s banking crisis in the early 1990s. Discretionary fiscal stimulus was immense, but counter-productive. With public debt growing fast, households and entrepreneurs became pessimistic about the future of the country. This pulled private spending down. Besides, risk premiums rose to the same level as in Italy, which had a tradition of excessively loose fiscal policy. This is a warning that cheap financing of radically increased budget deficits should not be taken for granted. The current crisis has taught consumers in many countries that there are limits to their debt. Do we want to learn this lesson in relation to the public debt as well? --

(*HEADACHE*) (*COVERING MY FACE WITH MY HANDS AND SHAKING MY HEAD IN ANTICIPATORY DESPAIR*)

-- A large fiscal stimulus may also turn out to have a negative impact on financial intermediation. Financial turbulence generates the risk of a credit crunch. How to mitigate this danger is a major worry of many governments. One of the reasons banks are reluctant to lend is they have insufficient capital. According to the International Monetary Fund’s recent “Global Financial Stability Report,” banks need globally almost $700bn of additional capital. A simultaneous large borrowing by governments to finance their fiscal stimulus could make it more difficult for banks to gain access to global capital markets and possibly limit any increases in their capital and lending. The ability of the emerging economies to finance their growth will also be affected. Large fiscal stimulus by developed economies could deepen a credit crunch in the less developed one. --

But... but... but... can't we just PRINT more money...? (*SNORT*) (*MIRTHLESS CHUCKLE*)

(The scary thing is... that IS the plan!!!)

(*REACHING FOR THE SINGLE MALT*)

-- One thing is sure: a large fiscal stimulus would increase public indebtedness and impose a burden on future growth. Big increases in public investments are likely to be wasteful, as it is not possible to have a long backlog of well-prepared projects. In addition, political pressures might dominate considerations. A large increase in spending may also raise the possibility of corruption. A fiscal stimulus that temporarily lowers indirect taxes at the cost of future increases in marginal income taxes does not improve incentives to work, invest and innovate. --

Seriously... does anyone NOT understand this...???

-- The effects of large fiscal stimulus in most countries are likely to be disappointing, while the longer time impact would be negative. The financial crisis is blamed on, among other things, deficient risk management. The proposals for a large fiscal stimulus suffer from the same weakness. --

Or as I like to put it... "throwing good money after bad."

(*SIGH*) (*FROWN*)

Rodak said...

(I think they should be, but I'm talking about what is.) (*SHRUG*)

But the question is not about what IS, but about how things should be changed.
One thing is certain: schools can't teach practical applications if they don't have the computers to teach them on.

Rodak said...

As for Palin, if what you're saying is that McCain might have lost by an even larger margin without her, that may be true.
But what that says about how McCain might have done with another running mate, such as Romney remains in question.
There is no doubt that the mouth-breathers preferred Palin to McCain and brought in that vote--the rubes, the holy rollers, the gun nuts and the gay bashers. She brought in enough votes to suffer a landslide defeat. Yipee.

William R. Barker said...

re: Rob; December 11, 2008 4:06 p.m.

"...if what you're saying is that McCain might have lost by an even larger margin without her, that may be true."

(*SMILE*) Not just "might," Rob; she would have. (At least that's what the available stats show.) (*SHRUG*)

Can I prove it? No. Not absolutely. But to contrast my unproven "certainty" to your previous citing of "might potentially," again, let me reiterate, I'm basing my "guess" upon hard stats and facts. You're just making it up as you go. (*SHRUG*) (Or so it seems.)

Anyway... the Election's over. That said, I'll make one more "certain" guess: This ain't gonna be the last discussion you and I have about Sarah Palin!

(*GRIN*) (*BACKSLAP*)

BILL

P.S. - Rob. Also to reiterate (and cross-thread): You really should pick up a copy of Bauerlein's "The Dumbest Generation." (Heck... you don't wanna buy it... get it through your local library consortium.)

Rodak said...

If America lets all of its heavy industry die in order to maximize corporate profits, then America will be at the mercy of those nations to whom that heavy industry has moved. The investor class won't care, so long as those nations don't nationalize those off-shore operations; they will continue to get filthy rich.
Meanwhile, back home, workers who formerly made a "middle-class' living by working in what used to be called "industry" will be scraping to make ends meet in service sector jobs.
That is the scenario that, as a simplified kind of allegory, is sketched out in "Atlas Shrugged" and that is what is happening.

William R. Barker said...

re: December 11, 2008 6:17 p.m.

Rob. You're preaching to the Choir - to a self-appointed High Priest in fact!

(*GRIN*)

Socialism isn't the answer though.

(*SHRUG*)

I assume your last post is at least partially targeted upon our blog and email exchanges regarding the auto industry "bailout" question. In any case, that's where I chose to focus this reply:

I'd rather see trade policy used as a blunt instrument to "save" the American automobile industry than the current rush to throw good (taxpayer) money after bad.

Rather than throw $14 billion or $140 billion (the numbers range across a ludicrous "take your pick" chasm) at the problem, I'd rather a simple new piece of temporary legislation along the lines of: No foreign made vehicles may be imported into the United States during the years 2009/2010.

Will this start a trade war? Who cares? Since there are no "perfect" solutions to the short-term/mid-term/long-term problems of the American legacy automotive manufacturers, let's go for the bad solution that less harmful and wasteful than the WORSE solution - i.e. a defacto U.S. government takeover of the U.S. automotive industry.

We'll let foreign car companies keep on selling parts for now. Furthermore, we'll continue to encourage foreign investment in foreign owned vehicle and parts manufacturing facilities here in the United States. And of course, foreign cars manufactured here in America will be treated as if they were cars made by the (no longer so) Big Three.

Now just in case Ed drops by and starts howling as if I had sold his children into slavery and used the proceeds to buy $8 bottle Dogfish Head 120 Minute Ale, again, let me reiterate...

THERE ARE NO PERFECT OPTIONS!!!

Hey... I'm still in favor of utilizing existing bankruptcy law to deal with the situation the American auto companies find themselves in, but just for those who won't consider this as a viable option no matter how many articles, op-eds, and position papers I forward them on the question, if that's "off the table" as far as you're concerned, I ask that you consider trade-based "solutions" as opposed to spending based, debt based responses to the current situation.

No... my "shorthand" up above (see: "who cares") concerning this proposal aside, the question really is which BAD proposals are LEAST worse, not which proposals are best. There is no "best." Get that through your heads, folks. (*SHRUG*)

BILL

Rodak said...

No foreign made vehicles may be imported into the United States during the years 2009/2010.

That certainly would start a trade war, and I don't know that America can any longer win a trade war. We have real global competition in any area you want to name in the 21st century. Unlike in the quite recent past, we really have to compete globally.
It looks to me like the genie is out of the bottle. The greed of "New World Order" crew has killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
If I were an auto worker today (as I once was), I'd fight to keep what I have now, because I'd figure that I have nothing to lose in the long run by doing so. I'd go down fighting the Fat Cats.
Look at the financial industry: it's been a scam for a long time. Eat the Rich is right.

William R. Barker said...

Re: Rob; December 17, 2008 7:49 a.m.

"I'd go down fighting the Fat Cats."

(*ROLLING MY EYES*)

Yeah. You'd go down alright. (*CHUCKLE*)

In all seriousness, though, your comments point to your ultimate selfishness and inability (or perhaps simply unwillingness) to see the big picture.

You're all over the board philosophically, Rob. (*SHRUG*) One day you're ranting about protecting "the workers," today it's "the worker" (singular, you personally), and tommorrow... who knows? (*SHRUG*)

You care only about what is, those already employed, not future employees, not stockholders and bondholders (which include pension funds and pensioners), not the good of the nation as a whole.

Yeah... (*SNORT*)... that's right, Rob... destroy the village in order to "save" it. If you (as an auto worker) can't keep things just as they are for YOU, then by God no one in the future will ever be given the opportunity to do "your" job but at a more realistic pay and benefits scale.

Yes, Rob, between folks like you on the "Labor" side and folks like Rick Wagoner on the "Management" side we're truly screwed.

(*SHAKING MY HEAD IN SADNESS*)

In any case...

(*SIGH*)

As to "winning" a trade war - if your goal is to preserve and strengthen American industry and retain and create well paying blue collar jobs then I'd say protectionism offers a better chance of "winning" than further massive indebtedness used to finance subsidies without end.

And by the way, speaking of subsidies, speaking of "protectionism" and restraint of "free" trade and all that... just what exactly do you (and Ed if he's tuning in) think a FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BAILOUT of supposedly PRIVATE "American" companies qualifies as...??? It's the antithesis of fair trade! It's like a high school student's dad - the English professor at Harvard - take his kid's SAT verbal for him! It's cheating...! (*SNORT*)

Well... if given a choice between "cheating" via deficit spending and government takeover (for all intents and purposes... "Auto Czar" indeed...) of private "American" companies and tariffs and/or quotas... sign me up as in support of the latter.

Jeez... I'll take mercantilism over socialism any day of the week. Again... to reiterate from yesterday... the question really is which BAD proposals are LEAST worse, not which proposals are best. There is no "best" in the sense that this is what we'd be doing in a perfect world or even absent the current economic circumstances. Get that through your head, Rob.

(*SHRUG*)

BILL

Rodak said...

I'll go for "mercantilism" if it will work. A brief study of labor history in the United States will show that, pre-union, the plight of workers, and the standard of living was comparable to that of the rest of the industrialized nations--not so great.
If the unions are abolished, and the wages and benefits lefts to the "free market" in a global economy, that will inevitably again be the case in the not too distant future.
So, you see, I am, thinking about tomorrow's worker(s). It's the union busters who are not--or don't give a shit, to be more accurate.

William R. Barker said...

Rob,

As I hope you realize I'm neither a union buster nor corporate shill.

I'm a nationalist. My goal is the best life, the most opportunities, for the greatest number of my fellow citizens. In broad terms (believe it or not!) I'm actually a "humanist" in the sense of if I could snap my fingers and everyone in the world could immediately have a comfortable American middle class life with political, religious, and economic freedoms I'd snap that finger faster than you can raise your fist in the air!

(*HUGE FRIGG'N GRIN*)

Seriously. I don't view "inferiority" as a support for "superiority." I don't want others to be less intelligent than I so that I can feel intellectually superior nor do I want others to be poorer than I so that I can feel comparatively "rich."

I do have... err... "Utopian" urges in me. (*WINK*) Above all... I'm a nice guy and nice guys want the best for everyone. "The best" though isn't a literal term. I mean... err... "nice" - as in... err... a "nice" life.

From there we further narrow down what I mean; "nice" is defined on the "better" to "worse" scale based upon ability and effort. (*SHRUG*)

Further narrowing...??? O.K. "Effort" isn't simply "effort" in the sense of equality of outcome. While roughly speaking we (you and me) can probably reach some sort of reasonable rough agreement on "just" compensation for individuals based on task and performance norming, obviously I want the best in every field to be more heavily compensated than those who aren't the best.

(I'm guessing this is where you and I would begin to differ...)

I'm guessing I'm more "outcome based" in my thinking than you - and by outcome I mean linked to profitability - your income being tied more to "outcome" of labor than seniority or points.

By the same token... (take sales for instance)... I'm less than convinced that fields like securities trading "deserve" the paychecks they may generate in good years vs. other "sales" jobs where even if the actual "work" performed (time and effort put in) is just demanding and just as hard as financial product sales the compensation is not comparable at all.

BUT I DIGRESS...

We BOTH want the American auto industry to not only survive, but to prosper.

We BOTH want employees to be treated fairly - though defining "fairly" is the rub. (*SHRUG*)

I have a host of philosophical as well as practical arguments against bailouts and what might in broad terms be seen as movement towards socialism - or semi-socialistic mechanisms if you'd rather. You on the other hand no doubt find the intellectual and practical pull of "socialism" stronger, more a good than an ill, more functional than dysfunctional. Yet... on the flip side... as you've just demonstrated by your acceptance of at least the CONCEPT that if mercantilism could "work" you'd give it a shot... you too are willing to lay aside your natural inclinations if theoretically doing so would help the most people.

(*SHRUG*)

Anyway... I wish Ed would chime in! (*HUGE FRIGG'N GRIN*)

BILL

Rodak said...

I believe that what a union member makes has an immediate effect on what a secretary or a bank teller makes, both in terms of salary and in terms of benefits. The union movement made it possible for "unskilled" labor to have a comfortable, relatively secure, lifestyle. It made it possible for the children of working people to go to college.
If the last big, non-governmental union has its throat cut, the vast majority of Americans will suffer for it. Only consider who is now vilifying the UAW in the media and you will understand what and who are behind the propaganda attack against the bridge loans (not "bail-outs") that the Big 3 are requesting. The neocon fascists, beginning with Reagan, have been killing unions where ever they found them weak enough.
You, Bill, are supposed to be a student of history. Surely you understand what happens to the working class when ever and where ever they cannot effectively organize to protect their livelihoods. This is class war, as the fascists claim; but it is top-down, not vice-versa.

William R. Barker said...

Rob. You just don't see how the pieces fit.

(*SIGH*)

Post-WW-2 thru the early 50's much of Europe and Japan was still recovering from the war - physically as well as psychologically recovering. The U.S. sat astride the economic world like a Colossus. Our economic dominance in the 60's was still largely unchallenged. (Remember when "Made in Japan" was a disparagement...???)

Rob. When dinosaurs roamed the Earth they had no competition! (*GRIN*) In the 50's and 60's the U.S. was so economically dominant and our (union produced) market shares were so huge that there was plenty of room for all the wage and benefits increases and attendant lifestyle polishing that BOTH YOU AND I view as positive.

But as with the dinosaurs...

(*SHRUG*)

Rob. Again... to remind you... (*WINK*)... YOU'RE OLDER THAN I AM!!!

Surely you recall the 70's...??? (*RUEFUL SMILE*)

(Oh... and btw... again going back to WW-2... it was the GI bill that started us on the "college for all" psychological track.) (*SHRUG*) (Plus... even 20/30 years later - mid 50's, mid 60's - university/college was relatively affordable. Contrast that - your own experience - to today and your child's.) (*SHRUG*)

But I digress... (*WINK*)

Back to the unions...

(*SIGH*)

You just don't see the connection between a business being PROFITABLE and worker pay and benefits - let alone hiring and pensions - do you...??? There's a total disconnect regarding this in your psyche, isn't there...???

"Only consider who is now vilifying the UAW in the media..."

Blah, blah, blah...

(*HEADACHE*)

YOU ARE ED!!! You are Janus!!! Jeezus Frigg'n Christ... economics is just another team sport to you - the unions are "your" team and management/ownership is "their" team.

"The neocon fascists, beginning with Reagan..."

You're a moron. You truly are a moron.

BILL

Rodak said...

Reagan was a union-busting, scoff-law fascist who supported other fascists in Central America. Bow down to him. Kiss his fuckin' feet, it won't change a thing.

Certainly a business has to be profitable in order that union members can hope to receive what they bargained for in the past.
If we had socialized medicine, like the autoworkers in virtually all of the countries with whom the Big 3 have to compete globally, we'd have come a long way towards making the Big 3 profitable again.
I know that American industry can't now compete and also pay workers a wage that will allow them to buy nice cars, houses, and electronic toys. Nor can they any longer hope to retire young, take a part-time job, buy and RV and drive across country seeing Mt. Rushmore and the Grand Canyon on their way to Vegas.
But that isn't their fault. And they are being asked to take too big a hit.